My grandfather did not win the Navy Cross fighting the Japanese racist, imperialistic aggression so that our president could grovel before the Japanese emperor. Everyone he knew on the USS Oklahoma was killed when the Japanese sucker punched us at Pearl Harbor. (He was on leave as my grandmother's birthday is in early December.)
If anything, the Japanese emperor should grovel before us for not hanging his father, Hirohito, the war criminal.
33 comments:
I can't even believe your ignorance in this post, Charles. It's so ridiculous that I almost thought you were joking until I realized that no, it's the Claremont Conservative.
Anyone who knows anything about Japan knows that bowing is the customary way of greeting someone in Japan and a sign of respect. It is not "groveling" and you know what? I'm sure the emperor bowed even lower to Obama than Obama bowed to him. You need to educated yourself before making ignorant and downright racist statements like the one you just did. Usually I enjoy your posts, even the ones I disagree with. But this post is so utterly racist I don't even know what to say.
I won't even get into your ignorance about Japanese politics, an ignorance that is apparent through this post as well as the other one about Obama in Japan.
Lowell,
It is you who is ignorant.
I am well aware that it is customary to bow in Japanese culture, but did you know, for instance, that the emperor almost never bows? (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/05/opinion/l-the-emperor-s-bow-586480.html)
Study up, friend, and get back to me.
Oh and you might want to be careful who you call racist. I dated a Japanese girl for a year, have many friends that are Japanese, studied Japanese during summer, and read voraciously about Japan. (It happens to be one of the things I'm obsessed with.)It was the Democrat party that supported internment of the Japanese, an action I'm happy to say that my family fully opposed.
I will concede that I watched the video of Obama bowing and you are correct, the emperor did not bow. That said, I lived in Japan for 2 years and my father worked in the political-military department at the US embassy. I also took a course in Japanese history from Hirohito until today, complete with a trip to Okinawa. I know that doesn't make *me* an expert by any means, but I don't see how bowing (ie respecting the Japanese customs) can be equated to groveling (which means , even if bowing is a sign of deference. Obama's position as President, the most powerful politician in the world, does not entitle him to disrespect the customs of an ally nation.
Or perhaps I just don't hold a grudge against Japan, as it seems like you do. They aren't the militant state they were 100 years ago under Hirohito.
I am told that there are only a handful of recorded instances where the emperor has bowed and they all occurred in the context of honoring the Japanese people or the war criminals that are buried in that most famous of cemeteries.
Fair enough, you took your Japanese history from the Japanese, who by the way, include in most of their textbooks only a page or two about WWII. I took it from reading about Japan in all its warts.
Of course if you read what I had written, I made it very clear that I am a fan of the Japanese people, but certainly not of its emperor or any of the vestiges of its feudal era.
Americans simply do not bow to any king or sovereign. We owe our fealty chiefly to the Constitution which eschews titles of nobility. That was sort of what the Revolution was all about.
Not trying to criticize you but honestly wondering do you have the same reservations about bowing to the Monarch of England? There it is also the same custom of bowing, don't extend your hand for a hand shake until she extends her, etc.
Also, do you really think that the Emperor only bows for war criminals, are you saying that there are no Japanese war heroes who aren't criminals or that the emperor only bows to the criminals?
Thanks
Absolutely!
I oppose the president of the U.S. bowing to any head of state or titular figure. I also oppose giving them iPods or DVDs that don't work.
Still wondering about your statements regarding Japanese war heroes...
http://www.google.com/search?q=emperor+bows+japan+history&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=z7W&sa=X&tbo=p&tbs=tl:1&num=100&ei=M4L_Ssq5C4jWtAOajPHFDA&oi=timeline_navigation_bar&ct=timeline-navbar&cd=3&ved=0CB0QywEoBA
The emperor's bowing. I think there will obviously Japanese people who served their country and that they did so with honor and were not war criminals. (Among them my great aunt Matchiko.) Unfortunately, there were a great many who were.
So would you take back and apologize for saying that the Emperor only bows to the Japanese and Japanese war criminals? It seems to imply that there are only Japanese war criminals, and no Japanese war heroes.
Also, just wondering about your thoughts on the Canadian ranking of foreign dignitaries.
http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/prtcl/address4-eng.cfm
well.....
Here are some responses:
1. Obama's bow wasn't culturally sensitive, even on its own terms.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6fL7Y4BZA&feature=player_embedded
2. No, I won't take it back, because you have totally misread what I said. He only bows at a specific shrine or the U.S. after we defeated the Japanese. He refused to allow people to photograph him bowing to a shrine to honor Korean dead.
3. Canada can do whatever it wants. It never fought a war for independence.
Sheesh, you know I do take classes here too, right?
I read this post and I was disgusted.
You might want to reconsider the usage of "groveling" and bowing. They are very, very different. Kinda like saying a American custom of high five-ing is hitting.
As Lowell said, you need to educate yourself, or at least THINK, before writing something something so entirely off base. ( and insulting)
In response to your response #2
You say right there that he bowed to Korean war dead, he didn't allow it to be photographed, but he bowed to Korean war dead. He also bowed to American war dead as you said.
But earlier you said
"I am told that there are only a handful of recorded instances where the emperor has bowed and they all occurred in the context of honoring the Japanese people or the war criminals that are buried in that most famous of cemeteries."
So first off aren't the war criminals that you speak of indeed Japanese people? Why did you have to make the distinction of singling out war criminals? You seem to want to highlight the Japanese history of war criminals, is this true that you want to highlight it? If so, why?
First anonymous,
Disgusted? How? You clearly can't read, let alone think. Obama's bow wasn't even culturally sensitive. http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/on-president-obamas-bow-to-the-japanese-emperor-an-academic-friend-writes-that-both-the-left-and-the-right-are-wrong.html
I'm perfectly capable of educating myself and do it routinely. Maybe it's time you read up on the great, blessed Obama.
To the second anonymous,
I think it's unacceptable to go to a shrine where there are war criminals. Period, such as those at the Yasukuni shrine.
Would this be extended to places such as Arlington Cemetery where there are soldiers who have committed what would be considered a war crime but because the US came out on top, they weren't tried for. Obviously, I think we owe a lot to American servicemen, but I do believe that there are some who have acted wrongly. So is it wrong to go to a place like Arlington?
Also, I understand that you are opposed to war criminals, but it seems like you needed to single them out. Also, this doesn't account for the fact that the emperor clearly has bowed for non-Japanese people, so would you apologize for those statements of saying that the emperor only bows for the Japanese? Also, I still don't understand why you singled out war criminals. Is this an attempt to cast the Japanese emperor in a negative light? You could have said Japanese people, war criminals, war heroes, etc. Or you could have simply said Japanese people since this includes all of the other categories.
To compare Yakushino shrine to Arlington is ridiculous. If you had any courage, you'd attach your name to that comment.
And no, I won't apologize. His fathers bowed to the U.S. when we forced him to after WWII, and he's bowed to Korean war dead, but refused to allow a photograph to be taken. 'Tis simple really.
Yasukuni*.
In 1959, the kami, or souls, of 1,068 executed as Class-B or C war criminals by Allied Forces military trials were enshrined at Yasukuni. That's a number of years after we knew the extent of their crimes against humanity.
I agree with the first anonymous, but you also seem to make different distinctions in terms of "culturally sensitive". In your link to youtube the video is trying to make the point that some foreign leaders have not bowed with the emperor. Yet, why do you care about this? How is it relevant? You stated that in response to Canada's hierarchy of world leaders that "Canada can do whatever it wants. It never fought a war for independence." Doesn't this seem to state that we shouldn't care what countries do that haven't fought a war for independence? So why do you bring up that video?
The second link you post about being culturally sensitive seems to deal with the degree of Obama's bow, which seems very odd for a Japanese person. He is very low and it's also weird to bow and shake a hand at the same time. But that is the sense of the culturally sensitive which I agree with, the greeting with the Empress was definitely "more Japanese".
That being said, the first link refers to the fact that other world leaders have not bowed upon greeting the President. But that doesn't mean that attempting to bow would be culturally insensitive.
Also, would you think that it would be okay for the leader of a foreign nation to come to the United States and refuse to shake the President's extended hand because in the leader's country's culture, a handshake, or not being the one to initiate the handshake is seen as a sign of weakness?
But that still doesn't answer the question of were you trying to portray the Emperor in a negative light? Why also would you decide to single out war criminals, when, since they are Japanese, are already included in your description of the Japanese people?
So, you do admit that you're wrong, that the Japanese Emperor has bowed to non-Japanese, yet you refuse to apologize? By saying only Japanese people, I think that it is trying to show the negative side of the Emperor.
Also, you simply say that "it is unacceptable to go to a shrine where there are war criminals." I am not saying that Arlington and Yasukuni have the same amount of war criminals, but it seems that if there ever were a war criminal at Arlington, or someone who had committed the same acts as a war criminal, that the actions of millions of Americans would be would be unacceptable when they visit Arlington each year. I also use the comparison of cemetery/shrine because cemeteries are actually quite rare in Japan, and usually involve Christians or foreigners.
The difference, of course, is that they were tried, found guilty, and executed. There aren't any war criminals in Arlington because there haven't been any trials and because Americans hang their war criminals. They don't enshrine them.
I made the point that it is typical of dignitaries not to bow, period. The link of the foreign dignitaries, may of whom hail from Asian nations, makes the point about cultural sensitives somewhat moot.
All of which points to the obvious: Obama got it wrong. He should apologize to the American people and he should finally admit that he also bowed to the Saudi King. It may very well be Japanese or Saudi custom, but it is not American custom. We don't bow to tyrants.
So the Emperor of Japan, a child during the war is a tyrant?
So, you do admit you were wrong about who the Emperor bows to?
If the U.S. ever did have someone who was convicted in an international court of a war crime and who was interned in Arlington, would you think it was unacceptable for Americans to visit Arlington cemetery?
Also, you didn't answer the earlier question about a handshake and how you would feel about a foreign dignitary on foreign soil refusing a handshake that was initiated by the President?
Also, do you consider the Queen of England to be a tyrant?
I was referring to his father.
I do not admit it. I admit that I did not give a full answer, but I wasn't asked for one.
I refuse to recognize the authority of international courts as legitimate, which they are not under U.S. Constitution. If the Senate ratifies a treaty which says that Americans can be tried, I think that's an illegal use of their power and would fight it in the courts, as we did in Medellin v. Texas.
The point about the handshake is silly. The Emperor didn't ask Obama to bow in the ostentatious and silly way that he did, which I'm assuming came as a surprise, given that video I linked to earlier. When the president extends his hand, that's a sign to reciprocate. Of course, if another head of state snubs the president, I'd be inclined to be careful with our foreign policy and that leader.
I'm fine with questions and some good give and take, but calling my work garbage without adding anything of substance is well, garbage. Fortunately, there's a place for that -- the garbage bin.
Wow, I think that flame war just raised my blood pressure. ha.
Anyway, here's an interesting article I read in the class I took. It discusses Yasukuni Jinja and Arlington National Cemetery. I'm not putting this up with the intention of it bringing up debate, it's just something for all the anonymouses and Charles to read if they're interested. And FWIW, I am unsure of my stance on the emperor and/or Prime Minister of Japan visiting the shrine.
http://www.japanfocus.org/-Andrew_M_-McGreevy/1786
And Charles, have you read Bix's book on Hirohito?
Charles, you say that you didn't give a wrong answer, simply an incomplete answer.
This is in reference to you saying that the only incidents of the Emperor bowing "all occurred in the context of honoring the Japanese people or the war criminals that are buried in that most famous of cemeteries."
That means that ALL incidents involved the Japanese people or war criminals.
That is like if someone was asked who commits crimes, and someone replied "All crimes are committed by Native Americans"
Later if somebody called them on it, they could say that they were not incorrect, they had simply not given a complete answer and included all elasticities. Would you accept this answer, or demand an apology?
Also, no the Emperor did not ask the President to bow, but I doubt people in Japan ever ask someone to bow to them. I also assume that the Emperor would never ask for someone to bow in a "ostentatious and silly way." Also, that may be a sign to reciprocate in American culture, but what if in his culture, it was not, it was a sign of weakness to accept an offered handshake, just as bowing is considered to be a sign of weakness in American culture?
Thanks for the link, Lowell.
I think the comparison is a stretch and creates a kind of moral equivalence, but I think the facts alone make the article of interest.
To the anonymous commentator,
I stand by what I said. You're analogizing is getting in the way of your reason. The handshake is well known around the world, despite your hypotheticals, which are really getting silly. Why can't you just admit that Obama did wrong here? At least one Japanese newspaper has refused to print the photo because of how embarrassing Obama's bow was. For someone who professes to care so much about how the protocols, you must ask yourself how that protocol office is so wrong about what to do.
In what way is my analogy flawed?
By saying all incidents occurred doesn't that mean that it is a complete answer? So when you say "all" you really mean "not all"? I'm confused.
Why are all these posts focusing on "cultural context" and "traditon", etc.? That really shouldn't be the crux of the criticism.
Charlie, this post is fucking ridiculous. Substanceless, utterly unserious, and only successful in making you look like a partisan moron. I know you can do better than bottom-of-the-barrel pot shots like this. Next time, try a critique that's actually a critique.
And I'll repeat my comment from Facebook: We have a national interest in maintaining cordial and positive interests with many nations. So that obviously means disrespecting their foreign dignitaries, right? Right?
Interesting Article/Discussion.
Just wondering what do you think of the President/other representatives of America bowing to shrines/temples overseas? Not necessarily to a foreign leader?
Don't really have a problem bowing to the dead.
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