To Ross and Josh:
I know you guys pride yourselves on how sophisticated, thoughtful, and open-minded you think you are. But to actually have these qualities, one would need both the courage to challenge his assumptions and the intelligence to recognize irony.
It has become characteristic of gay marriage activists to assert rather than to argue. Thus Josh excuses what any normal person would recognize is plain statement of bigotry:
“Also, if someone’s goal was to declare war on my right to marry, I would probably not hesitate to call them names like a ‘creepy Mormon cabal’ too, even if it is slightly incendiary.”
A war on your right to marry? First of all, can you show me where this right comes from? The reality is that marriage is an institution, created by the government, to foster the most stable environment for the generation and raising of future citizens (children). The people retain the right to tailor institutions they create to the ends they see necessary. You can make an argument to the people to extend the sphere, but calling them bigots and forcing them to accept any willful assertion of how to change their institution by calling it a “right” can and should be seen as an attempt to undermine the institution itself.
Perhaps this is why advocates of gay marriage aren’t alarmed by all the ways gay marriage is then used to sue and attack private institutions that disagree with gay marriage. Anyone who disagrees must be forced to agree. Rather than consider this point, Ross believes it would be better to silence someone like Charles when he points it out. Better to let nobody see it.
So the irony couldn’t be clearer. Ross disagrees with Charles’s argument that gay marriage activists rabidly try to force their beliefs down others’ throats by shutting their critics up and refusing to debate their claims by, well, shutting Charles up and refusing to debate his claims. Who knew college would be so much like Animal Farm?
I suppose the hypocrisy is easier to swallow when you tell yourself pleasant little lies. Here’s how Josh rationalizes what Charles has to say:
“The funny thing here is that Charles isn’t even against gay rights at all, so I have to assume he’s just whining for whining’s sake. He believes the Forum should not be allowed to publish anything he disagrees with because he pays student fees that go toward ASCMC and running the Forum, so he lashes out on whatever he can.”
Yeah, that’s it. Charles doesn’t believe The Forum should publish anything he disagrees with. How Astute.
That The Forum now censors dissent is appalling, but not surprising. Besides Max Davison’s classic humor columns, it has never posted anything of any intelligence. Keep up the good work.
Cheers,
Dan
Tuesday, November 11, 2008
Ross Boomer, the Forum Editor, is a Censor and Intolerant of Free Speech
By
Charles Johnson
at
12:16 AM
Ross Boomer, CMC '09, pictured in orange, with the brocoli on his plate
I kept my cool, but pointed out that for many of us who oppose homosexual marriage the issue isn't one of "civil rights" but of special rights and the fear that gay marriage isn't the final battle for homosexual activists, but the opening of a long battle to deprieve religious institutions and others of their rights of association. I posted all of the cases that I had gotten from NPR (of all places). I argued that a lot of those who advocate for homosexual marriage are thugs who use the state to get people to agree to their lifestyle choice rather than debate the legitimate points their opposition have. And what did Ross Boomer do? He behaved thuggishly and censored my comment. He even argued that calling Mormonism a "creepy cabal" was okay.
I have but two questions for Mr. Boomer, editor of the Forum, is the Forum actually a forum? Or can you censor whomever you like because you were given an unelected position?
I'm used to activists, like Ross, behaving badly when they get other people's money at Claremont McKenna. But I was grateful for the level of support I've been getting from students on the Forum's website. Thanks to Ilan Wurman, Scott Yingling, and David Kalin, but most especially Dan O'Toole. His response is worth restating here. Who knows it might be censored next!
Labels:
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16 comments:
Ross is actually the one on the right in the picture not the middle... in the middle is Mike
hey, can you post whatever your comment was on your website so that people can at least see what it was and judge for themselves
Anonymous 2,
I can't really as I didn't save it.
It all seems like a rather pointless rant by "A Tool". After all, we don't get to see your post that was censored, Charles. And according to Ross, there was some problematic things with what you said, which I don't find hard to believe. Maybe you should tell us what he might have found a problem with.
I can't put it up. I didn't save it. Wish that I could or I would have already. I basically made the argument that many on the Left like to use the state to force others to accept their behavior and cited the NPR article.
Charles C. Johnson wrote
at 3:17pm on November 9th, 2008
I'm voting for Mitt because he's a Mormon. Mormons are pretty much better at everything than we are.
You are right. I did write that. I'm under the impression that you can speak favorably of a group, no? In my experience, Mormons tend to be some of the greatest Americans this country has produced.
Charles,
I'm confused by the logic of this passage from your article "I kept my cool, but pointed out that for many of us who oppose homosexual marriage the issue isn't one of "civil rights" but of special rights and the fear that gay marriage isn't the final battle for homosexual activists, but the opening of a long battle to deprive religious institutions and others of their rights of association."
First, I have never encountered activists who support gay marriage that want to restrict the rights of religious associations, but I'll grant you its a possibility they exist. Second, even if they do exist, why is this a valid reason to vote against gay marriage? Shouldn't one's vote on the issue depend on the merits of the issue and not who happens to be on each side of the issue. If it was not fair to vote against McCain simply because Al-Qeada endorsed him (which I think we can all agree on) then its not fair to vote against gay marriage simply because you disagree with the positions of some gay marriage supporters. Gay marriage and religious freedom are completely compatible. If churches want to refuse to sanction gay marraige or preform gay marriage ceremonies, that is completely their right and nothing about legalizing gay marriage would change that basic freedom of conscience. Allowing gays to be married in the eyes of the law does nothing to undermine religious freedom.
i am ashamed to go to the same school as you mr. johnson. while i embrace people with many ethnic, religious, lifestyle, and political backgrounds, I do not condone biggotry and hate. you are unable to express your opinions without offending people, and you clearly enjoy creating a scene.
i am personally offended by pretty much everything you have done relating to this issue, and i hope you recieve some sort of punishment from CMC. i am not ok with sharing my school with people like you.
Ah, anonymous, tolerance in action. I would remind you that this is not "your" school in that you don't have a right to it. If CMC "punishes" me, you can be sure that I will fight and win a court battle.
Be well,
Mr. Sprague,
Thank you for not insulting me and taking my arguments seriously. I hope to give you a serious answer.
As someone who hails from Massachusetts and was initially supportive of gay marriage, I witnessed that this wasn’t the first battle. There were afterwards fights over religious organizations and secular organization. I suspect that this is because gay marriage is not the culmination of a civil rights kind of struggle for universal rights, but for recognition on the part of the citizenry. Effectively, gays want to mainstream their “lifestyle choices” and hence marriage is a battle that they want to wage.
Why make such a big deal over the word “marriage” if under California’s law, same-sex benefits are nearly identical, if you don’t plan to sue for “equality”?
If you’re going to make the argument that gays need to have the right to marriage, you make also make the argument that they have certain responsibilities as full citizens. As Christopher Hitchens argued last night at Pitzer College, one of those responsibilities on the path to full citizenship is service in the military. Why have gay activists stopped fighting against Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell? Perhaps it is easier to raise money when you want to undermine the institution of marriage – which many left wingers have always wanted to do with easier divorce laws.
You’re mistaken on religious freedom and marriage being separate. By the state recognizing marriage, it begins a lot of lawsuits that don’t need to occur.
Contrary to left-wing doctrine, church and state are very intertwined in American life through charities and faith-based initiatives and the use of secular establishments by religious or quasi-religious organizations, say Boy Scouts renting government buildings for their purposes.
First of all, I'm queer, so I feel like I can speak to this with at least some authority that Ross and others here don't have.
Second, I personally don't think that Ross should have censored you, but I do think that you are wrong and offensive. You seem to want others to treat you with respect and argue your points without trashing you personally, but what you don't recognize is that you are trashing and illegitimatizing the queer community with your statements. What you have said about us is easily considered hateful in addition to wrong.
Now, to respond to your last comment:
"Effectively, gays want to mainstream their “lifestyle choices” and hence marriage is a battle that they want to wage."
Homosexuality isn't a lifestyle choice. I know you disagree but your basis on that disagreement is flawed. That is like saying that being the child of your mother is a lifestyle choice. Yes, you can choose to act like you aren't your mother's child, but you still are. By saying that being gay is a lifestyle choice you do sound ignorant and bigoted. And by saying that it is okay to discriminate based on sexual orientation because people can choose not to be out is like saying its okay to discriminate against a woman because if she wants she could try to pass as a man. You are just wrong on this point, Charles.
Why make such a big deal over the word “marriage” if under California’s law, same-sex benefits are nearly identical, if you don’t plan to sue for “equality”?
Remember the last time we tried separate but equal? Separate is never equal, therefore we do plan to sue for equality. Same sex benefits aren't 'nearly identical' because once I have a same sex union I don't have a wife. My union isn't legally recognized by the state as a marriage. I want a marriage, not a union. Why is that so wrong? How does it hurt you? You get to marry the love of your life if ever you find her, why can't I marry mine?
"Why have gay activists stopped fighting against Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell?"
We haven't stopped fighting Don't Ask, Don't Tell. And there are many queer people in the military, you just don't know about them because they aren't allowed to tell you. Right now, this year, gay marriage is on the center stage - but we don't want to be second-class citizens anymore. You are right that (at least for me) gay marriage isn't the last stop. Don't Ask, Don't Tell will have to end too someday.
"Perhaps it is easier to raise money when you want to undermine the institution of marriage – which many left wingers have always wanted to do with easier divorce laws."
Okay, if you want to believe that 'some left wingers' want to undermine the institution of marriage then whatever. But that isn't my agenda. In fact I like marriage so much that I want to be able to get married!
"You’re mistaken on religious freedom and marriage being separate. By the state recognizing marriage, it begins a lot of lawsuits that don’t need to occur."
No, you're mistaken on thinking religious freedom and marriage aren't separate. You can have your religion while I have my marriage and they never have to have anything to do with each other, except maybe your feelings being hurt. One of the silliest arguments I have heard (over and over) in this debate is that MY marriage hurts YOUR religious freedom to not see gay marriages. Well it isn't actually your freedom to not have gay marriages in your life, the same way it wasn't white people's freedom to not share a water fountain with black people or sit in the front of the bus. I agree with you that there will undoubtedly be lawsuits after we get our gay marriages, but I think they ARE necessary. Churches don't get to discriminate based on race and they shouldn't get to discriminate based on gender or sexual orientation either. Personally, I think women need more rights in the church first, then gays. But I think both groups have to be protected under the law from discrimination by religious groups.
"Contrary to left-wing doctrine, church and state are very intertwined in American life through charities and faith-based initiatives..."
This is true but its still wrong. Church and state were always meant to be separate and they should be made so now.
Charles, If only someone read this website and cared about what you have to say.
I'm only even here because you put a link, and because you as a human being have a great deal of comic appeal.
He's just bitter because he broke up.
I'm a little bit puzzled as to why anyone would want to censor what you've said. I imagine that a number of the people supporting the deletion of your comment on the forum probably normally support the ACLU and their informal credo: "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it."
After all, what does the Forum have to lose? If you truly said something objectionable, let it be shown so everyone could see that you're a jackass.
Since I am posting this with my real name, I'll just come out and say that from what I could gather from your argument, I think you're wrong, and if your comment was as bad as I've heard it was, I condemn it fully because I endorse the right of gay people to marry whomever they like, serve in our nation's military, etc because their "lifestyle" is hardly a choice in anything but the most trivial sense. However, you have a right to speak your mind, especially on a public Forum that you pay for. (Although I think this "Leonard Law" business is ridiculous government intrusion into private enterprises.)
P.S. CI, Look forward to a letter to the editor re: Ilan Wurman's editorial piece.
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